Yet another bramble thread

ElPared · 03-12-2013, 12:39 PM

I agree that Veggies aren't fun to play against now, but I submit that they were never intended to be fun to play against. From the get-go they've been designed to control the board by clogging it with thorns, and now that they're good at their job people are freaking out. This is the intended functionality, and I will echo Ser Purple Wolf in saying that I hope they never get nerfed. I like them the way they are.

I should point out that I play mostly Feedback and Adorables still, and have always played a couple Veggies games since Bramble V1. I dare say I play them less now that they're so popular just because I hate mirror matches (the same reason I stopped playing Feedback for a while). My point is I don't play veggies exclusively like my purple clanmate, so I feel a bit more objective

$tugot$ · 03-13-2013, 03:26 AM

I dont see them overpowered , i see them radically different than any other team, and not a adorables/scally punching bag anymore

Alvendor · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 08:56 AM by Alvendor.)

(03-12-2013 11:32 AM)garcia1000 Wrote: I don't know too much about the details but I agree with whatever Alvendor said. My time is important so I didn't actually read what he wrote but like... Alvendor is pretty much never wrong

If only everyone was as wise as you garcia... Heart

Haha joke aside, I believe I was wrong previously when I suggested bombshell and mobi should be nerfed to bramble level... Attacking thorns is definitely a keeper as it provides that aggression veggies lacked.

Someone was hinting at it in another thread, but I just realized how tough of a task it is to balance veggies. You have 3 fairly balanced races which all benefit (kind of) linearly with the number of specials you have on the map. Now we add bramble which you only create one of and its power grows exponentially through the game while you need to keep it balanced and fun on both casual and hardcore level against all the other races.

This is any game designer's nightmare (or any strategy nerd's heaven).

Uvafan173 · 03-13-2013, 09:03 AM

Yeah, I agree that the attacking should stay and 2 HP would make them too weak again, same with them costing two wits. How about you can only make three thorns per turn before they start costing two wits instead of one? That might help to prevent the ridiculousness we are seeing now even at the very high level.

See here for an example of this ridiculousness:

http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20Y5PqNAww

**connor34911** · 03-13-2013, 09:51 AM

MAYBE BRING DOWN TO 2 HP, TAKE AWAY 1 WIT FOR KILL, AND MAKE IT SO BEYOND 3 THORNS FROM 1 CHAIN COST 2 WITS

laYahooz · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 10:36 AM by laYahooz.)

(03-13-2013 09:51 AM)connor34911 Wrote: MAYBE BRING DOWN TO 2 HP, TAKE AWAY 1 WIT FOR KILL, AND MAKE IT SO BEYOND 3 THORNS FROM 1 CHAIN COST 2 WITS

Yeah but I'm sure I echo other bramble fans in that 2hp thorns ate not good enough. Soldier spam and you lose.

The last suggestion is interesting but I prefer bramble remaining the same (though I understand that the majority want a nerf)

Uvafan173 · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 10:50 AM by Uvafan173.)

(03-13-2013 10:34 AM)laYahooz Wrote:
(03-13-2013 09:51 AM)connor34911 Wrote: MAYBE BRING DOWN TO 2 HP, TAKE AWAY 1 WIT FOR KILL, AND MAKE IT SO BEYOND 3 THORNS FROM 1 CHAIN COST 2 WITS

Yeah but I'm sure I echo other bramble fans in that 2hp thorns ate not good enough. Soldier spam and you lose.

The last suggestion is interesting but I prefer bramble remaining the same (though I understand that the majority want a nerf)

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no argument for not nerfing in at least some way that can't be countered easily. Right now, Veggienauts are too easy to use and too hard to counter, at all levels. In replays from fluffys to Super Titans alike, thorns can be shown dominating the screen. It is simply too efficient to be able to essentially create a three-health runner for one wit, and the runner doesn't even have to be at your spawn space! That's why I think the two wit cost for excessive thorns only may be able to work.

I do agree with you on the 2 hp though, thorns shouldn't be vulnerable to soldier spam.

**connor34911** · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 10:58 AM by connor34911.)

Here is the math:

One 2 hp bramble thorn @ 2 hp= 1 wit--> total 1 wit

One 3 hp soldier=2 wits, movement= 1 wit, attack= 2 wits--> total 4 wits. ADD 1 wit if you boost (5 wits total). Additionally, you probably boosten the soldiers to defend against the veggie snipers.

PLUS that soldier cannot attack anything else that turn, which is important aspect that many people have not been considering. Maybe it is because only high level players consider this aspect. The only person I've seen mention this is burnodrod.

Obviously I am not considering the cost of spawning and moving the bramble (8 wits) or the parent thorn cost, but I think this make my point. I also didn't consider how brambles allow you to make tons of attacks per turn and take out snipers, medics and runners efficiently.

Uvafan173 · (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 11:01 AM by Uvafan173.)

(03-13-2013 10:55 AM)connor34911 Wrote: Here is the math:

One 2 hp bramble thorn @ 2 hp= 1 wit--> total 1 wit

One 3 hp soldier=2 wits, movement= 1 wit, attack= 2 wits--> total 4 wits. ADD 1 wit if you boost (5 wits total). Additionally, you probably boosten the soldiers to defend against the veggie snipers.

PLUS that soldier cannot attack anything else that turn, which is important aspect that many people have not been considering. Maybe it is because only high level players consider this aspect. The only person I've seen mention this is burnodrod.

Obviously I am not considering the cost of spawning and moving the bramble (8 wits) or the parent thorn cost, but I think this make my point. I also didn't consider how brambles allow you to make tons of attacks per turn and take out snipers, medics and runners efficiently.

but once you build up a bunch of soldiers it's hard for the opponent to kill all of them because thorns only do one damage. I'm of course not always right though, so I think that beta testers should try a bunch of solutions, i.e. all of the ones mentioned in this thread and other bramble threads, and see what works best.

**connor34911** · 03-13-2013, 11:06 AM

(03-13-2013 11:01 AM)Uvafan173 Wrote:
(03-13-2013 10:55 AM)connor34911 Wrote: Here is the math:

One 2 hp bramble thorn @ 2 hp= 1 wit--> total 1 wit

One 3 hp soldier=2 wits, movement= 1 wit, attack= 2 wits--> total 4 wits. ADD 1 wit if you boost (5 wits total). Additionally, you probably boosten the soldiers to defend against the veggie snipers.

PLUS that soldier cannot attack anything else that turn, which is important aspect that many people have not been considering. Maybe it is because only high level players consider this aspect. The only person I've seen mention this is burnodrod.

Obviously I am not considering the cost of spawning and moving the bramble (8 wits) or the parent thorn cost, but I think this make my point. I also didn't consider how brambles allow you to make tons of attacks per turn and take out snipers, medics and runners efficiently.
but once you build up a bunch of soldiers it's hard for the opponent to kill all of them because thorns only do one damage. I'm of course not always right though, so I think that beta testers should try a bunch of solutions, i.e. all of the ones mentioned in this thread and other bramble threads, and see what works best.

Yeahhh thats the point. The 1 damage attack wasn't ever meant to be used the way it is now (attack 3 times to kill a soldier) etc. My suggestion would force veggie users to make units. Iv'e played against veggies who only end up having vice versa, and I have played as veggies and done the same.

I do agree that many different things should be tried by the beta testers. A quick fix could be adding a wit cost for receding thorns and adding a wit cost for rooting (this cost would slow down brambles early).