Which Maps to Retire?

[ImperialSun]

(02-06-2013 10:45 AM)Necrocat219 Wrote:  I'm not sure it is so different from chess, sure there are uncertainties but with each opening you know exactly what each uncertainty is and so can play accordingly. Nice to know that you wouldn't want one to - but wait- wouldn't switching maps out encourage a metagame to develop? Isn't metagaming adapting your strategies to game and player attitude changes?

My understanding of metagame is when there are common place strategies that many player do to the extent that one can predict with a reasonable certainty what the opponent will do despite having limited visual feedback. This is why rts have metagame a whereas chess isn't really comparable (since you can always see everything). Then meta gaming is using this reasonable chance your opponent will do this strategy to your advantage by countering it despite not actually knowing for sure that they are doing it (and often times with a build which is suboptimal if they end up not employing that strategy). Meta gaming could also include not doing the build your opponent expects (everyone else of your race does it on that map in that matchup) to throw your opponent off. Hopefully your opponent does the counter but you didn't actually do that build and now you have an advantage.

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Anyway, I think this is interesting like worldfamous even if you and combatex may disagree.

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But the point is rotating maps more frequently so that people aren't as familiar means less metagaming which is what you want. So I guess you should be in favor of a more rapid turnover if you don't like metagame. If you do like metagame then you should want maps to stick around for longer so strong and more predictable (but then also counterable) strategies develop.

[burnodrod]

I believe that all maps can be fixed.
On SI we need to remove the top hex to fix "the sniper hole" bug.
On Reaper this could be the fix for "the Mobi rush" problem (not shure though, need to test).

And this is the fix that I suggest for SP.
People who hate Sweetie Plains probably can't find the reason why they always lose the games on that map. There is a witspace on this map that you think it's yours. But it's not! Seriously, SP is the only map that has a witspace on equal distance from your spawn and your opponent's spawn. Check all other 1v1 and 2v2 maps out! Furthermore, you have an obstacle on your way to that witspace, while your opponent has a wide straight way which makes it easier for him to attack than for you to defend.
All STs know about that feature resulting in boring stupid fights for that one witspace. I suggest to move this witspace one hex closer to the base and remove one obstacle. Additionaly, it could be useful to get rid of some obstacles in the center of the map to ginger up fighting in that area.

[baopu]

(02-05-2013 04:24 AM)joelduque Wrote:  I would like to know the purpose of retiring maps from league play. Peekaboo is a chore for SvS once players start to pump out BSs. It is very hard to defend in Reaper and SFI, the lone spawn spaces being far from their respective back doors; they tend to have quicker games on them compared to the other maps. I feel there is still significant FTA on Foundry, albeit reduced with the p2 initial wit adjustment. There is something peculiar about Glitch that I found it as the only map that heavily favors the Feedback.

Maybe I need more sleep but I can't seem to decipher your acronyms. Can you help me out?

[maconbot]

Sharkfood Island needs to go. Very little strategy involved. Seems like the first one to attack looses. Skallywags are favored as canon is impossible to defend against if used correctly. So it penalizes the people who have paid for your game. The only way to play this map and have any chance of winning is to build up for the first 8 turns and hope the other guy makes a mistake...boring gameplay. All the other maps are good and fun still...SFI just needs a makeover.

[EkoFox]

(02-07-2013 01:38 AM)baopu Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 04:24 AM)joelduque Wrote:  I would like to know the purpose of retiring maps from league play. Peekaboo is a chore for SvS once players start to pump out BSs. It is very hard to defend in Reaper and SFI, the lone spawn spaces being far from their respective back doors; they tend to have quicker games on them compared to the other maps. I feel there is still significant FTA on Foundry, albeit reduced with the p2 initial wit adjustment. There is something peculiar about Glitch that I found it as the only map that heavily favors the Feedback.

Maybe I need more sleep but I can't seem to decipher your acronyms. Can you help me out?

SvS is Scallywags versus Scallywags, BS is Bombshell, SFI is Sharkfood Island, FTA is first turn advantage, p1 and p2 are player 1 and 2.

(02-07-2013 02:08 AM)maconbot Wrote:  Sharkfood Island needs to go. Very little strategy involved. Seems like the first one to attack looses. Skallywags are favored as canon is impossible to defend against if used correctly. So it penalizes the people who have paid for your game. The only way to play this map and have any chance of winning is to build up for the first 8 turns and hope the other guy makes a mistake...boring gameplay. All the other maps are good and fun still...SFI just needs a makeover.

I find it interesting that you think whoever attacks first loses. Almost all of my SFI games start with me attacking first and end with me winning.

[Ja Karta]

(02-06-2013 04:01 AM)aaronINdayton Wrote:  I don't want them to just keep adding maps, because then to stay competitive players would have to practice even more maps with even more match-ups

Because high-level play should be based on exhaustive memorization rather than general strategic and tactical ability?

The more variety the better I say. Though I think chess960 is better than standard chess for the same reason. Rote memorization of openings (race - map matchups in this case) is just boring.

[baopu]

Thanks ecofox!

[vegaprom]

(02-07-2013 01:31 AM)burnodrod Wrote:  I believe that all maps can be fixed.
On SI we need to remove the top hex to fix "the sniper hole" bug.
On Reaper this could be the fix for "the Mobi rush" problem (not shure though, need to test).

And this is the fix that I suggest for SP.
People who hate Sweetie Plains probably can't find the reason why they always lose the games on that map. There is a witspace on this map that you think it's yours. But it's not! Seriously, SP is the only map that has a witspace on equal distance from your spawn and your opponent's spawn. Check all other 1v1 and 2v2 maps out! Furthermore, you have an obstacle on your way to that witspace, while your opponent has a wide straight way which makes it easier for him to attack than for you to defend.
All STs know about that feature resulting in boring stupid fights for that one witspace. I suggest to move this witspace one hex closer to the base and remove one obstacle. Additionaly, it could be useful to get rid of some obstacles in the center of the map to ginger up fighting in that area.

On Sharkfood Island I agree either removing top hex or adding a block next to the base so that sniper cannot shoot there.

On Reaper I think it's its dominance that it's the map weak point, but I suggest moving a spawn space one space closer to the centre.

My opinion on Sweetie Plains, which is my most favourite map because I won 95% of the game on that map. According to the rule of Outwitters Math, that point is the weakest spot on the map. I think that makes SP different from others. It might be like the deadly channel on Foundry, but less frightful. In fact I think Sweetie Plains is the most balanced map since large, not too many or few obstacles and almost no FTA.

How about Peekaboo? No one talks about Peekaboo but to shoo it away! There should be some suggestions!

[aaronINdayton]

(02-07-2013 02:17 AM)Ja Karta Wrote:  

(02-06-2013 04:01 AM)aaronINdayton Wrote:  I don't want them to just keep adding maps, because then to stay competitive players would have to practice even more maps with even more match-ups

Because high-level play should be based on exhaustive memorization rather than general strategic and tactical ability?

The more variety the better I say. Though I think chess960 is better than standard chess for the same reason. Rote memorization of openings (race - map matchups in this case) is just boring.

Why not just have randomly generated maps? Maybe the team you play each time is random also? That wouldn't be even a little boring!

[Necrocat219]

High level play will always come down to largely experience of said maps and knowlage of how effective each spot is - that's why all players in ST have to work up hard to their level, and any new players placed there drop before a rise again. It's natural that the top 5 players or so will have largely memorised a general outcome of each opening, each path of attack, etc. Increasing to a really high number of maps will make it so the #1 player has to be fully dedicated to memorising them. There's always a few with those capabilities in the pool of players of any game.

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(Also Aaron I know you were being sarcastic but I would love the idea of randomly generated maps to stir things up as long as they were symetrical )