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+--- Thread: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters (/showthread.php?tid=787)
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - CombatEX - 10-27-2012 03:11 AM
(10-27-2012 12:47 AM)oneadamleft Wrote: Beta testers: send us replays. Invite us to games (oneadamleft). Show us what's wrong.
Hard to do when "what's wrong" happens outside of the game (more tedious turns). =P I think the actual balance is fine and more replays will confirm that, but again, balance is not the only issue.
I'm actually not that adverse to the actual change at this point as I've gotten used to it by now, BUT I still think that it will yield the opposite of the intended result. Why would casual players enjoy having to consider more variables? I don't really see the reasoning. For high level players it's just a matter of adapting to the change and then continuing to play competitively. For casual players it's a matter of being even worse at the game or having to become less 'casual' and consider the increased number of scenarios for each turn.
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - Alvendor - 10-27-2012 03:34 AM
My gut reaction when I heard about this change was "why change anything that ain't broken?"
But the more I think about it, I have a hard time coming up with strong arguments against it. The increased complexity is a good thing in my opinion. Simple rules which results in complex behavior is what makes strategy games fun. The more moves you play on autopilot in a game the less I think you enjoy it.
Pros:
Increased complexity while still simple
Easier to break up a turtling player
Heavy becomes more valuable
Cons:
Slight FTA increase
Suicide tactics less viable
Neutral/Not sure:
Runner becomes less valuable - but will still be needed for vision
Mobi becomes stronger - hit and run tactics more viable
Changes bombshell - easier to kill but can earn more than 1 wit per attack
Mobi and bombshell changes might require a boost to the scrambler?
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - blckace - 10-27-2012 03:40 AM
(10-27-2012 03:34 AM)Alvendor Wrote: My gut reaction when I heard about this change was "why change anything that ain't broken?"
But the more I think about it, I have a hard time coming up with strong arguments against it. The increased complexity is a good thing in my opinion. Simple rules which results in complex behavior is what makes strategy games fun. The more moves you play on autopilot in a game the less I think you enjoy it.
Pros:
Increased complexity while still simple
Easier to break up a turtling player
Heavy becomes more valuable
Cons:
Slight FTA increase
Suicide tactics less viable
Neutral/Not sure:
Runner becomes less valuable - but will still be needed for vision
Mobi becomes stronger - hit and run tactics more viable
Changes bombshell - easier to kill but can earn more than 1 wit per attack
Mobi and bombshell changes might require a boost to the scrambler?
I agree with you alvendor and thanks for pointing out that the scrambler needs a boost, im sure it gives more credibility coming from someone as highly ranked as you are
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - aaronINdayton - 10-27-2012 03:49 AM
I wonder if the wit per kill change is required for the Bramble to make sense. Does killing thorns give wits? Would they be too good if they didn't? Would the Bramble be perfectly balanced if they didn't? Ahhhhh to speculate...
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - CombatEX - 10-27-2012 03:54 AM
Killing thorns doesn't give wits or that would make the Bramble terrible =)
The Scrambler will get +1 wits for scrambling in the next beta build.
As for your points Alvendor, you put it quite well.
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - Promicide - 10-27-2012 03:54 AM
(10-27-2012 03:49 AM)aaronINdayton Wrote: I wonder if the wit per kill change is required for the Bramble to make sense. Does killing thorns give wits? Would they be too good if they didn't? Would the Bramble be perfectly balanced if they didn't? Ahhhhh to speculate...
Perhaps it adds an added benefit, but as Adam has said it is intended to address a wider spectrum of issues.
*edit: misinterpreted, thought you meant thorns that deal damage and thus killing to add wit
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - Alvendor - 10-27-2012 04:19 AM
(10-27-2012 03:40 AM)blckace Wrote: I agree with you alvendor and thanks for pointing out that the scrambler needs a boost, im sure it gives more credibility coming from someone as highly ranked as you are
Thanks, the change to get a +1 wit when scrambling is probably a must. If it turns out the bombshell becomes even stronger with the new changes you could maybe look at boosting the scrambler further (or change it so any attack that kills a unit is free).
I just have a hard time imagining if the bombshell will be better or worse off!? It will probably be very rare to earn more than 1 wit. It will rather be a limitation on the other player to never move so the bombshell can kill two units..
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - poweewee - 10-27-2012 11:44 AM
(10-27-2012 03:11 AM)CombatEX Wrote: I'm actually not that adverse to the actual change at this point as I've gotten used to it by now, BUT I still think that it will yield the opposite of the intended result. Why would casual players enjoy having to consider more variables? I don't really see the reasoning. For high level players it's just a matter of adapting to the change and then continuing to play competitively. For casual players it's a matter of being even worse at the game or having to become less 'casual' and consider the increased number of scenarios for each turn.
I think casual players don't really think too far ahead. I mean, they're casual. They might actually enjoy this new mechanic more, since if they kill a unit, then "Whoa! I get an additional wit!".
As for the experienced players, yes, it's just a new mechanic that we will have to get used to. I guess it's just kind of weird that this new mechanic comes after we've played so many games with the old rules.
All this talk about the new mechanic is making me anxious...I wish I was in the beta!
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - garcia1000 - 10-27-2012 12:07 PM
It's the change Outwitters deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
RE: Alex & Adam - Getting +1 Wit for Kills: Why it's a really poor change to Outwitters - Admiral 77 - 10-27-2012 12:26 PM
(10-27-2012 12:07 PM)garcia1000 Wrote: It's the change Outwitters deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
Hahahaha. That's good!! Some outwitter wit right there!!