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+--- Forum: Outwitters (/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Meet the Veggienauts! (/showthread.php?tid=646)
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Ravernoth - 10-19-2012 06:53 AM
(10-19-2012 05:33 AM)Harti Wrote: Just a heads up:
The change is 99% likely to happen the way it is now in beta.
![[Image: HuCMQ.gif]](http://i.imgur.com/HuCMQ.gif)
That is a real kick to the stomach
It was clear that they were serious about it, but I still felt that they couldn't help but eventually see how it worsens the simplicity and balance of the gameplay, and listen to what their testers are telling them.
OML's stated goal was to see if simple rules could create an interesting strategy game. And they succeeded wildly - I think all of us would agree: the gameplay mechanics as they are, are pretty much perfect.
But it seems that OML had a different picture of Outwitters in their minds from what we players have enjoyed.
It will be a real shame if this goes ahead.
Can only hope that they will reconsider this change after they've had more time to see the effects and get feedback from players.
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - GoHeat 3 - 10-19-2012 07:29 AM
(10-19-2012 05:33 AM)Harti Wrote: Just a heads up:I'm assuming your talking about the 1 wit/kill thing so, NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
The change is 99% likely to happen the way it is now in beta.
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Harti - 10-19-2012 07:47 AM
@blckace: Not quite, Sniper turtling seems to be a viable strategy right now. Everything that draws close gets one-shot at the cost of 0. If a Sniper gets destroyed, simply spawn another one. It will be able to kill the unit that just destroyed the Sniper. At 0. .........
OML said their beta data was quite stable and under control, though. The data should be somewhat neutral, so they aren't implementing something that will not work at all. I just don't think it'll work, but that's just a gut feeling.
My proposal was that when you destroy a unit, it will drop a "wit bulb" in your color which you can collect to refund 1 wit. If you step on a bulb that is not yours, it breaks.
However, that took away the immediate refund of 1 wit to either move OR attack with the wit. With my proposed solution, you wouldn't be able to use it to attack (or only rarely) because you would always have to move to the space first.
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - blckace - 10-19-2012 08:06 AM
(10-19-2012 07:47 AM)Harti Wrote: @blckace: Not quite, Sniper turtling seems to be a viable strategy right now. Everything that draws close gets one-shot at the cost of 0. If a Sniper gets destroyed, simply spawn another one. It will be able to kill the unit that just destroyed the Sniper. At 0. .........
OML said their beta data was quite stable and under control, though. The data should be somewhat neutral, so they aren't implementing something that will not work at all. I just don't think it'll work, but that's just a gut feeling.
My proposal was that when you destroy a unit, it will drop a "wit bulb" in your color which you can collect to refund 1 wit. If you step on a bulb that is not yours, it breaks.
However, that took away the immediate refund of 1 wit to either move OR attack with the wit. With my proposed solution, you wouldn't be able to use it to attack (or only rarely) because you would always have to move to the space first.
The problem with snipers is that they are too fragile, if you don't heal it and a scout gets it that's a big loss, if you try to stack snipers usually there's no room because they crowd your spawn point it's very ineffective and when a sniper is buffed that's a huge investment, no one affords spawning two snipers and buffing them, 10 wits at least on small maps?. This change seem to favor turtling, 4 hp soldiers would rule. But the worst part is it discourages scouting, and would increase guesswork, which eventually makes you feel less in control of the game? But the unpredictability might be fun, who knows!
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Harti - 10-19-2012 08:28 AM
Ya I hear what you're saying, I've found it hard to pull off also, but I spawned significantly more Snipers to get rid of approaching Soldiers than I usually would.
Spawning and moving a Runner to kill my Sniper will leave you at +1, but don't forget that the Sniper one-shot a unit before - usually a Soldier - which was more expensive, leaving ME at +1~3 instead.
The Sniper-Runner match-up will be a tie, yeah. But once I begin buffing the Snipers (which is what you want to do with Sniper turtling anyway), you're going to have a hard time keeping up I guess.
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Ravernoth - 10-19-2012 08:59 AM
(10-19-2012 07:47 AM)Harti Wrote: OML said their beta data was quite stable and under control, though. The data should be somewhat neutral, so they aren't implementing something that will not work at all. I just don't think it'll work, but that's just a gut feeling.
I'm wondering.. what data is OML looking at that shows that this improves the gameplay? I can only think of shorter games (due to more wits per turn) as a metric that could be tested?
And how does that data compare against the feedback of 80-90% of testers who are telling them it's a poor change?
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Eijolend - 10-19-2012 05:30 PM
@Beta-Testers: Do you feel this change makes strategically saving up wits less important, since it's easier to react? Or are the crazy attacks with lots of wits saved up even crazier now?
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Kamikaze28 - 10-19-2012 06:23 PM
(10-19-2012 05:30 PM)Eijolend Wrote: @Beta-Testers: Do you feel this change makes strategically saving up wits less important, since it's easier to react? Or are the crazy attacks with lots of wits saved up even crazier now?
It's kind of both. You don't need as many Wits to steamroll into your opponents defenses since every unit you destroy gives you a wit back. Consequently, if you did save up a lot of Wits, you can push a lot further, as long as you have units to move. Attacks in general have more momentum because of the +1Wit/Kill mechanic.
It should not be omitted though, that counter-attacks get the same benefit. Destroying the left-over attack force bolsters your Wit count and might enable you to position your units for a counter strike.
If you imagine Outwitters matches as a pendulum swinging back and forth, the new +1Wit/kill mechanic drastically increases the amplitude of said pendulum.
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - worldfamous - 10-20-2012 05:05 AM
Does scrambling a unit also add 1 wit?
RE: Meet the Veggienauts! - Kamikaze28 - 10-20-2012 06:21 PM
(10-20-2012 05:05 AM)worldfamous Wrote: Does scrambling a unit also add 1 wit?
No, since the scrambled unit is not destroyed.