+- One Man Left Studios Community Forums (http://www.onemanleft.com/forums)
+-- Forum: General (/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Tournaments (/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Thread: Outwitters WORLD CUP Winner - Alvendor (SWEDEN) (/showthread.php?tid=556)
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - Gf!sh - 01-19-2013 04:34 AM
Logic dictates that 2nd placed is the one losing the finals to the 1st placed.
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - Thrutchy - 01-19-2013 04:42 AM
(01-19-2013 03:36 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:(01-19-2013 01:56 AM)Thrutchy Wrote: You can't even determine "silver" unless you have double elimination.I do not think this is true
Here is a quote from wikipedia:
"In a random knockout tournament (single-elimination without any seeding), awarding the second place to the loser of the final is unjustified: any of the competitors knocked out by the tournament winner might have been the second strongest one, but they never got the chance to play against the losing finalist."
Seeding clearly helps, but 2nd strongest could still easily be some loser to the strongest in a quarter or semi final. When you award 2nd place in a single elimination tournament, realize that seeding plays a primary role.
With a single elimination tournament, round-robin near the end (maybe 4 players left) might be a good final stage to rank the remaining players. The 2nd strongest still could have been eliminated earlier, but seeding reduces the likelihood.
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - awpertunity - 01-19-2013 05:01 AM
(01-19-2013 01:38 AM)Gfich Wrote: Are we going to do a bronze match?
That's a good point, I hadn't really thought about that. But since we will have 1st through 3rd place for the new World Cup, maybe we should here too
So Szei and and Blckace should also play a game each on Sweetie Plains for 3rd place if they'd like to!
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - GreatGonzales - 01-19-2013 05:12 AM
(01-19-2013 04:42 AM)Thrutchy Wrote: Here is a quote from wikipedia:
"In a random knockout tournament (single-elimination without any seeding), awarding the second place to the loser of the final is unjustified: any of the competitors knocked out by the tournament winner might have been the second strongest one, but they never got the chance to play against the losing finalist."
Seeding clearly helps, but 2nd strongest could still easily be some loser to the strongest in a quarter or semi final. When you award 2nd place in a single elimination tournament, realize that seeding plays a primary role.
With a single elimination tournament, round-robin near the end (maybe 4 players left) might be a good final stage to rank the remaining players. The 2nd strongest still could have been eliminated earlier, but seeding reduces the likelihood.
Well, no tournament bracket is going to be perfect. We cannot say with certainty that the player who comes in first place is the best player; it's just very probable. Yes seeding plays a large role, but note that your Wikipedia quote refers to a "random knockout tournament (single-elimination without any seeding)". Now, there are tournaments with strong seeding, tournaments with weak seeding, and tournaments with no seeding, which this quote refers to. I think that the World Cup had very strong seeding, thanks to the initial qualifying pools round. So that's one objection.
My other problem with this line of reasoning is that to say that the loser in the finals is not necessarily the second place finisher, because there may be other players finishing in the semifinals who are better, is kind of a slippery slope. It could very well be that the second strongest player met the best player in the quarterfinals. So when we say that someone came in second place, it's not a statement of certainty of that player's rank among this population of players. Rather, it's a statement of high probability that this is the second best player. But you're right that seed plays a large role, so tournament viewers should always take results with a grain of salt. The league system will always be a better barometer of skill than tournaments; tournaments merely have higher drama.
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - Thrutchy - 01-20-2013 06:13 AM
Yep. League system is probably a better judge of skill and every tournament has its flaws (and drama).
With 4 players left, single elimination with a bronze match is 2 rounds with 4 matches total. With 4 players, round-robin is 1 round of 6 parallel matches and has more accurate ranking (between those 4 players). You might consider this for the upcoming World Cup.
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - Necrocat219 - 01-20-2013 06:24 AM
Woah! Thought the world cup had finished! Good luck to the both of you!
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - GreatGonzales - 02-22-2013 02:09 AM
I would like to report that my third world cup match with Szei is STILL not over. We are currently on turn 112 and no end in sight.
That is all, please carry on.
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - awpertunity - 02-22-2013 10:36 AM
(02-22-2013 02:09 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote: I would like to report that my third world cup match with Szei is STILL not over. We are currently on turn 112 and no end in sight.
That is all, please carry on.
Hahaha, wow... I assumed you guys had just cancelled the game.
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - Alvendor - 03-05-2013 06:12 AM
After a way too long wait the final is finally over! Both me and Blueswimmer had forgotten about this tournament until a few weeks ago =)
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Yq4HtAgw
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YxovuAgw
Both cool games, especially the second one in which blueswimmer finds my scrambler, doesn't have enough wits to kill it but manages an attack controlling 3/4 of the map. I fall back and saves with a defensive scrambler!
RE: Outwitters WORLD CUP - FINALS - USA vs SWE - GreatGonzales - 03-05-2013 06:20 AM
Wow, the first world cup is finally over! Congratulations Alvendor! Will have to watch those replays later.