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+--- Thread: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! (/showthread.php?tid=2559)
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - Torbreck - 09-29-2013 08:55 AM
(09-21-2013 02:30 AM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:Round 1: Long Nine
outwitters://viewgame?id=ahRzfm91dHdpdHRlcnNnYW1lLWhyZHIVCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YgICAgISbmQsM
Then, Torbreck did an incredible mistake that costed him the whole game. When he finished his turn 17, he had three wits left. Three was the perfect amount, a perfect amount that he didn't even use! What could he have done? He could have moved his medic and healed the heavy, (This way, alvendor wouldn't be able to reach the base with his heavy, so he couldn't directly win next turn) and saved up the remaining wit, in order, next turn, to have 8 wits and be able to make a mobisnipe-soldier combo to kill the unprotected base, and win the game. Always think twice before sending your turn guys![/i]
You are right of course - with the benefit of no fog and a replay it looks silly not using the medic......... but I think you have missed one crucial point. It was not so much a mistake, but a 50/50 call that I got wrong.
I knew he had another soldier somewhere out of view at the top. I had to decide whether he did what he did or instead (what I incorrectly thought) was that he had the soldier sitting just out of sight just in front of his sniper near his base.
If that was the case then on his next turn he could move that soldier down and also spawn another one to block two hexes against his base meaning that I could not use the 2 soldiers to win in 1 turn and would have to spawn-tele a sniper - at a minimum this would cost 8 wits to so I had to save at least 1 which meant I could not use the medic to heal the heavy.
Sometimes things fall your way... sometimes they don't
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - awpertunity - 10-01-2013 10:40 AM
(09-21-2013 03:19 AM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:Round 6: Sweetie Plain
outwitters://viewgame?id=ahRzfm91dHdpdHRlcnNnYW1lLWhyZHIVCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YgICAgIT1qAkM
The red adorable's turn 24 has not been optimal in my opinion. He has chosen to kill a yet not dangerous soldier rather than protect a precious sniper against runners.
Wait, awpertunity didn't take his chance to kill the sniper! What he had to do there is kill the runner with his one at the very bottom, check what was there, and then see he could kill the sniper with his runner in range. Maybe he thought it would be impossible for powee to make such an error?
Yes that was most definitely a big mistake on my part. As you said though I remember thinking about spawning a runner to do that but concluded he must have moved the sniper away!
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - Mag!cGuy - 10-05-2013 10:41 PM
(09-29-2013 08:55 AM)Torbreck Wrote:(09-21-2013 02:30 AM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:Round 1: Long Nine
outwitters://viewgame?id=ahRzfm91dHdpdHRlcnNnYW1lLWhyZHIVCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YgICAgISbmQsM
Then, Torbreck did an incredible mistake that costed him the whole game. When he finished his turn 17, he had three wits left. Three was the perfect amount, a perfect amount that he didn't even use! What could he have done? He could have moved his medic and healed the heavy, (This way, alvendor wouldn't be able to reach the base with his heavy, so he couldn't directly win next turn) and saved up the remaining wit, in order, next turn, to have 8 wits and be able to make a mobisnipe-soldier combo to kill the unprotected base, and win the game. Always think twice before sending your turn guys![/i]
You are right of course - with the benefit of no fog and a replay it looks silly not using the medic......... but I think you have missed one crucial point. It was not so much a mistake, but a 50/50 call that I got wrong.
I knew he had another soldier somewhere out of view at the top. I had to decide whether he did what he did or instead (what I incorrectly thought) was that he had the soldier sitting just out of sight just in front of his sniper near his base.
If that was the case then on his next turn he could move that soldier down and also spawn another one to block two hexes against his base meaning that I could not use the 2 soldiers to win in 1 turn and would have to spawn-tele a sniper - at a minimum this would cost 8 wits to so I had to save at least 1 which meant I could not use the medic to heal the heavy.
Sometimes things fall your way... sometimes they don't
Well, you would still have one wit left if you moved the medic and healed the heavy, that's what I said in my comment
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - Alvendor - 10-07-2013 05:08 AM
(09-21-2013 02:30 AM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:Round 3: Sharkfood Island
outwitters://viewgame?id=ahRzfm91dHdpdHRlcnNnYW1lLWhyZHIVCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YgICAgOT70AkM
A great win from Alvendor! He has been able to make a successful early push, which was allowed by an error from sharugames: he gave up his runner to kill alvendor's medic. It was not a wit unefficient move, but the problem is that, afterwards, he was blind, and didn't see the agression coming.
Here is something to discuss: I would argue that killing the medic in this position is actually wit inefficient!
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - Thrutchy - 10-07-2013 06:08 AM
Best case, it was wit neutral for Sharugames: 3 wits to kill the medic and 3 wits to kill the runner and replace the medic. But, these things make it look inefficient:
* trading an attacking unit for a non-attacking one
* The medic wasn't adjacent to the spawn. Being away from the spawn makes it less valuable (up to 1 wit). For sharkfood, this is still a very good medic location so I'd say this is only a partial wit penalty.
* Before the medic was killed, it wasn't used on any soldiers. It looks like Alvendor had no plans to use it. The medic looks like bait based on this. Unboosted soldiers seems like a good strategy on this map since snipers aren't typically spawned proactively. A feedback opponent makes this seem better.
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - [PETA] Cor13:4 - 10-07-2013 11:28 PM
(10-07-2013 06:08 AM)Thrutchy Wrote: Best case, it was wit neutral for Sharugames: 3 wits to kill the medic and 3 wits to kill the runner and replace the medic. But, these things make it look inefficient:
* trading an attacking unit for a non-attacking one
* The medic wasn't adjacent to the spawn. Being away from the spawn makes it less valuable (up to 1 wit). For sharkfood, this is still a very good medic location so I'd say this is only a partial wit penalty.
* Before the medic was killed, it wasn't used on any soldiers. It looks like Alvendor had no plans to use it. The medic looks like bait based on this. Unboosted soldiers seems like a good strategy on this map since snipers aren't typically spawned proactively. A feedback opponent makes this seem better.
I'd disagree with some of these points.
The medic on SFI is sometimes very useful in defense to block adjacent base hexes or to forward move to heal attackers after you attack and your opponent counter attacks. For this reason, the medic being away from the spawn is not a negative like on most maps.
Unboosted soldiers are decent on SFI because snipers rarely are used if you're not adorables. However, on a counter-attack, often the only thing that can reach the attackers from your spawn is a runner. Having some boosted soldiers, especially on your bottom attackers is valuable. Also, if the heavy is still in play, boosting your soldier of course prevents the one-hit on a soldier.
For these reasons, although I personally wouldn't take the medic, I wouldn't consider it an inefficient move.
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - Thrutchy - 10-08-2013 12:31 AM
I agree that the location of the medic was probably the weakest argument for the medic kill being inefficient. Maybe even null.
Another argument for inefficiency:
* 2 killing units were adjacent to the killing runner so that no movement was constrained to kill the runner. Also, the adjacent heavy had nothing else in range.
The biggest argument in my opinion is that the medic didn't appear like it was going to be used.
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - [PETA] Cor13:4 - 10-08-2013 12:35 AM
Yeah, nothing had to move to kill it, but that still is 3 wits to kill medic, and 3 wits to replace a medic, so it's still 0 wits, right?
But yeah, if you consider it wasn't going to be used, then he traded a useful unit for something that probably was never going to be used.
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - Alvendor - 10-08-2013 08:12 AM
For me the the strongest point is actually the positioning of the medic. It is not worth 3 wits at that position, especially when I'm adorables.
1. If I spawn a mobi I will likely have to move the medic next to the spawn. If the opponent kills my medic I can replace it next to my spawn earning one extra wit.
2. Having the medic there forces me to keep a unit on the wit space to prevent the opponent from putting a runner on the witspace killing my medic for a very favorable trade.
I guess it is possible to generalize this concept to something like this:
"Player A and B spends equal amount of wits in a trade. If A's position remains the same while B gets the option to reposition some of his units, B will always come out equal or ahead from the trade."
RE: The Elite Championship - Season 1 - The Games - Come discuss about them! - L3R4T - 10-08-2013 09:20 AM
For me there are no problems if you kill the medic or not, you can play the 2 things... BUT You have to adapt your strategy if you do or don't.
If you kill the medic and trade your attacking unit, you know that you won't be the early agressor in the game. So you have to delayed the maximum you can, the time when you will put your units in range of the oppenent (he did it too quickly, turn 6, the place of the soldier near the hole is a big mistake, you cannot put your unit in a such position if you won't be the agressor) And try to maximise the benefits of your own medic boosting all your units.
If you don't kill the medic you can still try to agress when you think he is spawing his special and if his units are in the range and that you have spare your witts instead of spawning the special... lot's of if ^^
Personaly I would have kill the medic
There is just a problem of strategy adaptation