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+--- Thread: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! (/showthread.php?tid=1737)
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - amoffett11 - 02-19-2013 05:43 AM
(02-19-2013 05:08 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:(02-19-2013 04:52 AM)amoffett Wrote:(02-19-2013 03:57 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:Quote:Neither of those was a serious solution. An others have said in previous posts, it's not about population size or percentages, it's about skill level. On the one hand we have people saying they went 35 - 1 to reach ST, and on the other we have people saying they're maybe kinda winning 60% of the time, maybe, they think. I've been dodging around saying this, but the above teams are not STs because they are not good enough to be. You are not on the same level as the current STs. They are better than you, and have earned their distinction.
You are missing the point.
When OML first devised the required skill rating for ST promotion, they did so arbitrarily. It was their best guess at the dividing line for the population. Probably, they used the same threshold for 1v1. But they clearly did not account for differences in the two populations. I said this above, but probably you didn't read since I've posted so much: you should divorce yourself from the notion that because the promotion threshold has always been a certain way, then it must be ideal. We know more now and it's frankly obvious that we do not have an ideal delineation of players.
This is where you're missing the point. I don't think they 'guessed' at a dividing line for the population. I don't think they care how many supertitans there are, or whether it accurately represents a certain percentage of players. Keep in mind that for a very long time there were no supertitans in 2v2; I don't think this bothered them in the slightest. You think it should reflect a percentage of players. Great. I don't think the developers could care less, rather, they set a threshold, and waited to see who could reach it. So far only two have.
Here's my metaphor: "you must be this tall to ride the roller coaster". You're not going to let more people on just because the population was shorter than expected. You could design a roller coaster built for shorter people, but than the roller coaster would be less fun. No, it's up to the short people to keep on growing.
I'm sorry man, you're just not thinking about this very critically.
1. 7 months is long enough for the elite to emerge in a population of players.
2. There were many supertitans in 1v1 after a mere 2 months; 2v2 only very recently has 2.
These are the facts that make your position nigh untenable. I feel like a broken record - if you want to continue arguing this, please address the above.
For you to be correct (that is, that current league assignment is appropriate), there would have to be an enormous divide between the highest 2 teams, and everyone else. We simply do not see this.
Your defense now seems to be that the devs don't care? I don't know if it bothered them that there were no 2v2 supertitans for a long time or not, but it should have! What is the utility in having 2 teams in a league? Almost nothing! What is the utility of having 0 teams in a league for approximately 5 months? Actually nothing. Do you not think maximizing utility is an admirable goal? That the devs "don't care" that their system is not ideal should be a disappointment to you just as much as me!
1. I would argue that the elite have emerged.
2. Given the length of time it takes to play a 2v2 game, this should surprise no one.
There does not have to an "enormous" divide, just a divide. And we absolutely see this.
As far as I can see, the system is only not "ideal" to a loud minority of players who are trying to get promoted before they've earned it. It is not important to the developers that there are enough supertitans to fill a league, I'm sure they'd prefer it, but maybe they can see that enough teams are close that they don't need to change it. Whatever their system is for ranking players, what is absolutely indisputable is that based on this system there are 2 teams ranked higher than everybody else. I have no problem with recognizing only two teams as being the best if they're the only ones who've made it, what I do have a problem with, and this is why I've taken this much time on a 2v2 argument when I play significantly less 2v2 than 1v1, is people trying to gain a distinction they have not earned and other people worked hard to get. It cheapens their accomplishments.
My guess is that in the next month or two, one or two of these teams gets promoted, and that team will then be changing their tune as to the fairness of the promotion system. (Note: To those teams listed here but who have not taken part in this discussion, I am in no way bashing you or accusing you of complaining, this applies only to those who have taken issue with the current system)
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - myninja527 - 02-19-2013 06:23 AM
Honestly,
I think that these teams:
Terenceshiu/Awpertunity
Terenceshiu/poweewee
Burnodrod/Mastercaster
Sir3/p1noyboypj
are leaps and bounds better than the other ones listed, and deserving of the super titan rating. We go about 50/50 with the other teams on that list, and The ninjas aren't quite at that supertitan level.
I believe that Burnodrod/Mastercaster might be the best team playing the game.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - Gf!sh - 02-19-2013 06:30 AM
(02-19-2013 05:43 AM)amoffett Wrote:(02-19-2013 05:43 AM)amoffett Wrote: BWLEEEEEGGHHHHHH CRAZY FREAKING LONG QUOTES!1. I would argue that the elite have emerged.
2. Given the length of time it takes to play a 2v2 game, this should surprise no one.
There does not have to an "enormous" divide, just a divide. And we absolutely see this.
As far as I can see, the system is only not "ideal" to a loud minority of players who are trying to get promoted before they've earned it. It is not important to the developers that there are enough supertitans to fill a league, I'm sure they'd prefer it, but maybe they can see that enough teams are close that they don't need to change it. Whatever their system is for ranking players, what is absolutely indisputable is that based on this system there are 2 teams ranked higher than everybody else. I have no problem with recognizing only two teams as being the best if they're the only ones who've made it, what I do have a problem with, and this is why I've taken this much time on a 2v2 argument when I play significantly less 2v2 than 1v1, is people trying to gain a distinction they have not earned and other people worked hard to get. It cheapens their accomplishments.
My guess is that in the next month or two, one or two of these teams gets promoted, and that team will then be changing their tune as to the fairness of the promotion system. (Note: To those teams listed here but who have not taken part in this discussion, I am in no way bashing you or accusing you of complaining, this applies only to those who have taken issue with the current system)
The main issue with having a 2 team ST league, is just that it's really hard to take a top league with only two players seriously. Even though it might cheapen someones accomplishments (which I highly doubt anyways), something just needs to happen to stop 2v2 from playing second fiddle.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - amoffett11 - 02-19-2013 07:11 AM
(02-19-2013 06:30 AM)Gfich Wrote:(02-19-2013 05:43 AM)amoffett Wrote:(02-19-2013 05:43 AM)amoffett Wrote: BWLEEEEEGGHHHHHH CRAZY FREAKING LONG QUOTES!1. I would argue that the elite have emerged.
2. Given the length of time it takes to play a 2v2 game, this should surprise no one.
There does not have to an "enormous" divide, just a divide. And we absolutely see this.
As far as I can see, the system is only not "ideal" to a loud minority of players who are trying to get promoted before they've earned it. It is not important to the developers that there are enough supertitans to fill a league, I'm sure they'd prefer it, but maybe they can see that enough teams are close that they don't need to change it. Whatever their system is for ranking players, what is absolutely indisputable is that based on this system there are 2 teams ranked higher than everybody else. I have no problem with recognizing only two teams as being the best if they're the only ones who've made it, what I do have a problem with, and this is why I've taken this much time on a 2v2 argument when I play significantly less 2v2 than 1v1, is people trying to gain a distinction they have not earned and other people worked hard to get. It cheapens their accomplishments.
My guess is that in the next month or two, one or two of these teams gets promoted, and that team will then be changing their tune as to the fairness of the promotion system. (Note: To those teams listed here but who have not taken part in this discussion, I am in no way bashing you or accusing you of complaining, this applies only to those who have taken issue with the current system)
The main issue with having a 2 team ST league, is just that it's really hard to take a top league with only two players seriously. Even though it might cheapen someones accomplishments (which I highly doubt anyways), something just needs to happen to stop 2v2 from playing second fiddle.
Which is what you've suggested earlier, which is the 2v2 top50 or 100 or whatever list. That solves the real problem at hand, which is teams wanting some idea of rank, wanting an idea of whether they've improved or not.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - worldfamous - 02-19-2013 07:12 AM
(02-19-2013 06:23 AM)myninja527 Wrote: Honestly,
I think that these teams:
Terenceshiu/Awpertunity
Terenceshiu/poweewee
Burnodrod/Mastercaster
Sir3/p1noyboypj
are leaps and bounds better than the other ones listed, and deserving of the super titan rating. We go about 50/50 with the other teams on that list, and The ninjas aren't quite at that supertitan level.
I believe that Burnodrod/Mastercaster might be the best team playing the game.
I agree. I assume you mean the ST listed because I included those teams in my list. I wouldn't go so far as to say burnodrod and mastercaster are the best but all the teams you listed are at least equal and the best out there. Surprised we haven't been matched up against you guys. You seem to play a lot and we obviously play against the same teams.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - alexjiang1 - 02-19-2013 08:02 AM
Terenceshiu/awpertunity, hands down best master pair out there(from the pairs we played).
(02-19-2013 06:23 AM)myninja527 Wrote: Honestly,
I think that these teams:
Terenceshiu/Awpertunity
Terenceshiu/poweewee
Burnodrod/Mastercaster
Sir3/p1noyboypj
are leaps and bounds better than the other ones listed, and deserving of the super titan rating. We go about 50/50 with the other teams on that list, and The ninjas aren't quite at that supertitan level.
I believe that Burnodrod/Mastercaster might be the best team playing the game.
We honestly havent played them before. They just got several of the games we started, if I recall, yall beat us once on CCM.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - GoHeat 3 - 02-19-2013 08:08 AM
I suddenly have the urge to play a massive amount of 2v2 from reading this thread.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - CombatEX - 02-19-2013 08:12 AM
(02-19-2013 05:43 AM)amoffett Wrote: 1. I would argue that the elite have emerged.
I would argue that there are Master teams that could be better than current ST teams in terms of hidden-rating at this moment (see my post above if you don't know what I mean). Just to be clear, I don't think Eijolend and I should be ST at this point as we haven't played enough games to really know, but other Master teams on that list could easily be at a higher rating than the ST teams. We won't know without a top 2v2 hidden-rating list.
(02-19-2013 06:23 AM)myninja527 Wrote: Honestly,
I think that these teams:
Terenceshiu/Awpertunity
Terenceshiu/poweewee
Burnodrod/Mastercaster
Sir3/p1noyboypj
are leaps and bounds better than the other ones listed, and deserving of the super titan rating. We go about 50/50 with the other teams on that list, and The ninjas aren't quite at that supertitan level.
We are 2-0 against you and we were even P2 both games so I don't know what you're talking about.
There seems to be a lot of people claiming this team is better than that team. This team is the elite team. My team is miles ahead of your team. That team over there is more deserving than that other team. etcetc. Please just stop everyone. Now more than ever this makes me want a 2v2 top list so we can stop all the speculation, much of which is just plain wrong. People claiming this and that only for others to reveal that the so-called stats they are providing are just fabricated. It is useless. We need OML to provide a true list.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - GreatGonzales - 02-19-2013 08:23 AM
(02-19-2013 05:43 AM)amoffett Wrote: 1. I would argue that the elite have emerged.
No you misunderstand - the point behind this premise is that there has been sufficient time for a thriving ST league to emerge. So yes, I agree with you; it's just that several teams haven't been appropriately promoted.
Quote:2. Given the length of time it takes to play a 2v2 game, this should surprise no one.
I think if you considered this, you'd see that this cannot sufficiently explain the divide between 1v1 and 2v2 ST leagues. We had a vibrant ST population for 1v1 after a mere 2 months. Yet, even after 7 months 2v2 still does not have a vibrant ST population. What you are suggesting is that this is because 2v2 matches are so much longer? I'm sorry but that's absurd - 2v2 matches are longer, sure, but not, I dunno what the math is, something like 100 times longer. No, closer to maybe 2.5 times longer. This does not explain the facts; something else is going on. And I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that this cause is the promotion threshold.
Please don't respond without addressing the above 2 points, if you still think I'm wrong.
Quote:There does not have to an "enormous" divide, just a divide. And we absolutely see this.
It would have to be enormous if we accept the premise that 7 months is long enough for the elite to emerge. Thats the point in calling it an enormous divide. You are suggesting that the elite is exactly 2 teams and no more. All I am saying is that this is out of line with the promotion standard set by 1v1.
Quote:As far as I can see, the system is only not "ideal" to a loud minority of players who are trying to get promoted before they've earned it.
I have not said this once, nor am I primarily motivated by this. I'm not even sure I would make the cut for ST; I just want the 2v2 league system to work. It isn't working.
Quote:I have no problem with recognizing only two teams as being the best if they're the only ones who've made it, what I do have a problem with, and this is why I've taken this much time on a 2v2 argument when I play significantly less 2v2 than 1v1, is people trying to gain a distinction they have not earned and other people worked hard to get. It cheapens their accomplishments.
You are absolutely right, relaxing the promotion threshold would cheapen the accomplishment of making ST. But this is what you are not getting: the system was rigged to be too strict from the outset. Lets agree, at least, that there IS a promotion threshold that is unreasonable. Suppose for example the system was set up in such a way so that only 1 team could ever possibly achieve the highest league. That would be an unreasonable threshold, right? And so if we corrected this system to allow lets say 5 teams in, would that cheapen the significance of the number 1 team's accomplishment? Of course it would, but that doesn't therefore mean that we shouldn't make the correction. What we have currently is not very far from this. Again, you need to divorce yourself from the idea that just because the promotion system was set up a certain way from the beginning doesn't mean that this is most ideal set-up. The devs, as you yourself admit, should want to encourage competition, excitement, and a sense of achievement with the league system. That's the whole point of having a league system. You are defending a broken system in which an entire league is a non-factor. So no this is not about giving accolades to teams who don't deserve it; this is about fixing a problem that has long existed in the league promotion system.
Quote:My guess is that in the next month or two, one or two of these teams gets promoted, and that team will then be changing their tune as to the fairness of the promotion system. (Note: To those teams listed here but who have not taken part in this discussion, I am in no way bashing you or accusing you of complaining, this applies only to those who have taken issue with the current system)
Actually I thought about saying this earlier - no, if got promoted tomorrow, I would still be fighting this fight just as vigorously. Because I am motivated by the ideal league system, regardless of who it benefits.
RE: Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!! - alexjiang1 - 02-19-2013 08:24 AM
Szei, I dont know about the hidden skill comment, Im positive no masters have a 12:1 W/L ratio and Im sure Krogoth/Gurley mustve has a pretty darn high one to get promoted